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You can find previous episodes of “The Stone Chapel Podcast” at Lanier Theological Library.
“The Stone Chapel Podcast” is part of the ChurchLeaders Podcast Network.
Michael Gorman
Hello, my name is Michael Gorman. I teach at St. Mary’s Seminary and University in Baltimore, Maryland.
Andy Johnson
Hi, I’m Andy Johnson and I teach at Nazarene Theological Seminary in Kansas City, Missouri.
David Capes
Dr. Michael Gorman, Dr. Andy Johnson, good to see you both. Thanks for being here with us on The Stone Chapel Podcast.
Michael Gorman
Great to meet with you, David.
David Capes
It’s been my goal for a long time to get you guys on here. And now I have a good reason to do that. We’ll tell people about that reason, in just a moment. But for those who don’t know, Michael Gorman, Mike, we’ll start with you, who is Mike Gorman.
Michael Gorman
Thanks very much. I guess I would say that my primary identity and vocation is as a New Testament scholar. I’m also a father and grandfather. So that’s important to me. But I have been teaching at St. Mary’s Seminary University for a very long time, since 1991. And for the last 12 years, I’ve held the Raymond Brown Chair in Biblical Studies and Theology. My primary interests have been in Pauline studies, but also in the Gospel of John, the Book of Revelation and some other areas of interest. And it’s great to be here with longtime friends in you and Andy.
David Capes
And you’re the author of about 20 different books or more. And there are more coming.
Michael Gorman
God willing, there might be. Yeah.
David Capes
In fact, out of this conversation today, and what’s going to be taking place [at the Lanier Theological Library]. in the fall of 2024, hopefully there’s another book coming out right after that.
Andy Johnson, Dr. Andrew Johnson, tell us who is Andy Johnson?
Andy Johnson
I’m also a New Testament scholar. I have taught at the Nazarene Theological Seminary for 22 years now. Before that for years at two liberal arts colleges. What I tend to focus on in the New Testament area is Pauline studies. And I have a particular interest in a couple of things. One longtime interest in resurrection theology, and an interest, particularly now in things having to do with Christianity, race, and racial justice. I am a father, not a grandfather yet and enjoy way too much, watching the Kansas City Royals, and watching the Kansas City Chiefs. And I’ve recently taken up fly fishing.
David Capes
Super Bowl champions. Not the fly fishing team, but Super Bowl champions. Well, we’re going to be working together on a lecture series that comes out of Nazarene Theological Seminary in Kansas City. And we’re going to be hosting that here at the Lanier Theological Library in the fall of 2024. For those who don’t know, first of all, let’s start with that. Andy, tell us a little bit about the Nazarene Theological Seminary.
Andy Johnson
Nazarene Theological Seminary is the denominational seminary for the Church of the Nazarene in the United States. There are other Nazarene seminaries, but we’re the only one in the US. We’ve existed since about 1940. I can’t remember the exact date. But our first New Testament professor was a guy named Ralph Earle. And the lectures that Mike will be doing, is part of the Earle Lectures on Biblical Literature. They were established by some generous donors in honor of Ralph Earle. And the reason they were established was, and I’ll quote “their purpose is to stimulate further research in Biblical Literature”. That’s the story of how the lectures came about. We’ve had some very good lectures. Mike’s lecture will become a part of a long list of prominent New Testament and Old Testament lecturers.
David Capes
When you went through the list for me months ago, I was very impressed. And those are books that I often look to and turn to. And so there’s a series of books that comes out of this lecture done by Baker Academic.
Andy Johnson
The lectureship has been going for about 15 years in association with Baker Academic. It’s entitled Theological Explorations for the Church Catholic. The first volume that came out was by Terry Fretheim. Joel Green, Brent Strong, Beverly Gaventa, Walter Moberly, Scot McKnight and Danny Carroll have all contributed to a volume. Mike’s volume should be the next one in this series.
David Capes
That’s terrific. We’re looking forward to that. Now the title Mike, that you have given to this series is John the Pauline Gospel? Paul and John in sync. There are three lectures by the way. What’s the big connecting piece between all three of those lectures?
Michael Gorman
You rightly said, David, that the lecture title has a question mark in it. John, the Pauline Gospel?, and then that subtitle, Paul and John in Sync. I joked with the two of you that the original title was Paul and John in concert. But it sounded too much like a Beatles throwback.
David Capes
That’s right. Madison Square Garden.
Michael Gorman
The big idea that I’m working with is, if we read the Gospel of John, and especially 1 John carefully, there are resonances with the letters of Paul. This has been recognized for almost as long as biblical interpretation has been going on. There is New Testament interpretation there. The early fathers, for instance, often quoted Paul to explain John. Whether it be on Adam, or belief or a variety of things on the story of Christ.
In the modern age it’s basically people saying, well, John’s independent. John’s not in there with the synoptics. John’s not in there with Paul, he’s just his own thing. And that’s being questioned now in some dramatic ways. And one of the question marks is, did Paul influence John? And I’m going to explore some similarities between the two. And then at the end, raise some possibilities about how those similarities might have come to pass. I want to see where and go into a deep dive. The two first lectures will be a deep dive into two very specific aspects of Pauline and Johannine theology. And then we’ll come back and look at how we might explain these realities.
David Capes
You mentioned a moment ago that scholars have found lots of differences and sort of no commonalities? Well, let’s talk about a few of those differences first, and then I want to come back and just at least tease out some commonalities you feel like you’ve discovered Mike.
Michael Gorman
Pretty obviously the first difference is, at least with respect to the gospel and all, is the genre. Gospel is not a letter and a letter is not a gospel. So that on the surface, creates some difficulty. And once you throw 1 John in, it relieves that difficulty a little bit. But you’re basically comparing to some degree apples and oranges. That’s a major challenge. You also have the reality that there are certain things that come up in the Gospel of John that are not in Paul.
One of the main things you would notice right away is the focus on “the Jews.” Or the “I am” sayings in John. Lots of things that you could find that are not in Paul at all. If you ask the question, John, the Pauline gospel? well, no, it’s obvious that they’re not the same. There are significant differences. And I think we have to respect that. So even the question is not saying theoretically, John didn’t just replicate Paul in a gospel form. That’s not the idea at all. Differences have to be respected, and explained, if you’re going to try to suggest that there’s a relationship between the two.
